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Author Topic: Ron Paul  (Read 7081 times)

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roadkill

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Ron Paul
« on: October 19, 2011, 10:09:19 PM »

I heard Ron Paul talking about cutting a trillion dollars from the budget and he mentioned doing it by eliminating departments. One of them was the Department of the Interior. If he is elected President and that were to happen, what department would the National Park system fall under? The DBNF is managed by the Dept. of Agriculture. Which department is the Red River Gorge and the Clifty Wilderness Area under the auspices of? He is being written off by a lot of pundits but do not count him out by any means.
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Ewker

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2011, 09:30:21 AM »

off to get the pocorn and beer
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Mark W

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2011, 12:39:44 PM »

National Park Service is part of the Department of the Interior, US Forest Service is under the Department of Agriculture. Someone told me that the USFS budget, however, is placed under "Dept. of Interior and related agencies" or something like that. Didn't make much sense to me than and still doesn't now, not sure if I got those details right or not.

Anyways, the Red River Gorge and Clifty Wilderness (and the entire Daniel Boone National Forest, for that matter) are managed by the US Forest Service.

I always get somewhat puzzled when I see Ron Paul bumperstickers in parking lots on public lands -- their rereational choices seem to contradict their political beliefs.
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Arthur

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2011, 04:10:50 PM »

isnt 2 first names the sign of the devil or something?
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roadkill

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2011, 04:54:04 PM »

How are someone' s recreational choices contradicting their political beliefs if the have a Ron Paul bumper sticker on their vehicle on public lands? But back to my point, and maybe I need to clarify it. In all the polls, Paul has been pretty much the same, while one week Perry's in the lead, the next Cain, and the next Romney and it will be like this until primary season begins. Then you will see them drop out one by one. My prediction is that Ron Paul will be one of the last two in the race. His supporters are in it for the long haul. The earlier everyone else drops out, the better his chances are against the other candidate, because more focus will be on him. In the event he gets the nomination, and is elected President, what does that mean for our National Parks system, BLM ,etc. He mentioned eliminating the Dept. of the Interior.  Will the NPS and BLM be transferred to another department? (like maybe the Dept. of Agriculture).
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Mark W

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2011, 05:50:29 PM »

How are someone' s recreational choices contradicting their political beliefs if the have a Ron Paul bumper sticker on their vehicle on public lands? But back to my point, and maybe I need to clarify it. In all the polls, Paul has been pretty much the same, while one week Perry's in the lead, the next Cain, and the next Romney and it will be like this until primary season begins. Then you will see them drop out one by one. My prediction is that Ron Paul will be one of the last two in the race. His supporters are in it for the long haul. The earlier everyone else drops out, the better his chances are against the other candidate, because more focus will be on him. In the event he gets the nomination, and is elected President, what does that mean for our National Parks system, BLM ,etc. He mentioned eliminating the Dept. of the Interior.  Will the NPS and BLM be transferred to another department? (like maybe the Dept. of Agriculture).

From my (limited) understanding of Ron Paul's political stances in particular, and libertarian ideology in general, they do not support government ownership of land other than military bases and essential buildings (prisons and courthouses, for example). They believe all land should be privately owned to facilitate business development (timber, mining, houses, etc.) and that the market should dictate the price persons pay to visit/use that private land.

I doubt that Paul would support those agencies (BLM, NPS) being transferred -- I assume he just wants them eliminated to save money. Law enforcement would probably still patrol those areas but interpretive centers (like the Mammoth Cave National Park visitor center of the one at Cumberland Gap or Big South Fork) would be closed as would campgrounds. It would not surprise me in the least if he motioned to sell off vast tracts of federal land to the highest bidder.

So, it amuses me to see a Ron Paul sticker on a vehicle at Mammoth Cave National Park and think that the person driving that vehicle would vote for someone that would shut down the public land that that individual is there enjoying.
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keith

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2011, 07:51:49 PM »

but do not count him out by any means.

I have.  If he wins the nomination I will eat your hat.
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Brownman

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2011, 08:59:35 PM »

If Paul wins we can probably count on Georgia Pacific stepping in to manage the Daniel Boone National Forest and as many national parks as possible.  If you want to save money and balance the budget how about stopping the practice of invading and occupying less developed countries.  This along with all the bombs we drop on these poor souls is very expensive. 
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Trekker Forrest

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2011, 09:28:33 PM »

Ron Paul stated four years ago in an interview that he believes the National Parks would be better managed if sold to private owners.  Once upon a time, the Department of the Interior managed all the lodges, restaurants, gift shops, etc.  Long ago, they subcontracted those to private agencies.  There's a strong feeling among the radical right that the parks themselves should also be managed by private agencies.  They would, of course, charge admission, and it would probably be a fairly high charge, (like Disney World and Kings Island) but then they would have the money to maintain buildings and trails and hire rangers.  Of course, you might see a Holiday Inn in the middle of the Gorge or atop Mt. LeConte, and you would probably see a Starbuck's in the old Snowball Room in Mammoth Cave.  But hey, the parks would no longer be a drain on taxpayers. 
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Mark W

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2011, 09:31:09 AM »

Ron Paul stated four years ago in an interview that he believes the National Parks would be better managed if sold to private owners.  Once upon a time, the Department of the Interior managed all the lodges, restaurants, gift shops, etc.  Long ago, they subcontracted those to private agencies.  There's a strong feeling among the radical right that the parks themselves should also be managed by private agencies.  They would, of course, charge admission, and it would probably be a fairly high charge, (like Disney World and Kings Island) but then they would have the money to maintain buildings and trails and hire rangers.  Of course, you might see a Holiday Inn in the middle of the Gorge or atop Mt. LeConte, and you would probably see a Starbuck's in the old Snowball Room in Mammoth Cave. But hey, the parks would no longer be a drain on taxpayers.

Thanks for outlining that scenario. Would anyone here prefer it that way? A toll booth at Nada Tunnel and the other entrances to the Gorge? Vending machines at trailheads? And so on and so forth . . .

Also, it should be noted that if the parks and forests were privately managed the regulations on off-trail travel would likely be much stricter in order to keep all visitors corralled into the places where the owners could squeeze the most money out of them. It's private land and the owners can dictate where you can go and where you can't go and charge you with trespassing if you disobey. With public land, they can strongly encourage you to stay on the trail but relatively few places in the federal public land system require you to stay on trail.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 09:33:46 AM by Mark W »
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Trekker Forrest

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2011, 12:04:01 PM »

It was NOT Ron Paul, but several years ago another privatization advocate addressed the off trail issue.  You would have different types of park passes you would buy on entering a park.  One would allow you to do everything around the centralized clusters of buildings.  A higher pass would allow you to hike the trails.  A higher one would allow you to backpack and stay overnight.  The highest one would allow you to go off trail.  The idea was that if you went off trail and they had to come rescue you, it would obviously cost more.  So your pass in effect included a sort of rescue insurance policy.  I want to make it clear Ron Paul himself has never addressed this at all. 
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Drift Woody

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2011, 02:29:50 PM »

I've often heard the argument that private businesses run operations much more efficiently than government agencies, and while that isn't necessarily always true the real point being missed here is that the central purpose of a private business versus a public agency are entirely different.

The objective of a private business is profit for its investors. Once in private hands, a treasure like the Red River Gorge would be operated to put money into the pockets of the owners -- and this could include selling some of the best parcels to private parties who would not allow any access to the public.

It is a mistake to assume that RRG and other public lands would be maintained and managed for use by the public after being sold to private investors. If there is any mineral wealth to be found you had better believe it will be extracted -- and without any laws preventing the rubble and waste from despoiling the scenic beauty if Ron Paul has his way by eliminating the Environmental Protection Agency along with regulations in general.

The "conservative" movement has been very good at convincing much of the public that (to paraphrase Ronald Reagan) government is the problem, not the solution. However, what seems to be lost here is our founding concept that We The People ARE the government. I do not dispute that the implementation of this concept has been far from perfect. Money has corrupted our political process and Washington far too often serves the ineterests of the special interests that supply the cash to run political campaigns for office. But the solution should be to improve upon the implementation of our founding concept, not denigrate and abandon it.

Our National Parks were created to preserve and conserve the natural heritage and beauty of America. That purpose and the concept of land for all the American people to enjoy is not the same purpose and objectives served by privately owned business in pursuit of profit for the owners. Once in private hands the Red River Gorge and other great places we like to hike and explore will be out of our hands and changed forever in ways I think most of us here would sadly lament.

We are able to enjoy RRG today and many other parks and wilderness areas due to the conservation efforts of people who recognized the intrinsic value of these places and that so much would be lost without securing it for future generations by having it publicly owned and adminsitered.

I know these are tough economic times and that many of us who in most circumstances would be good friends are at each others throats over politics and ideology, but on the issue of protecting a place like Red River Gorge (and on most issues that really matter) we really have a lot more in common than we sometimes acknowledge.

Please, let's not lose places like RRG forever by embracing a political ideology that most people really haven't thought through to its extreme and logical conclusions.
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roadkill

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2011, 03:54:41 PM »

      I know there are some Ron Paul supporters out there. Feel free to jump in. It wasn't my original intent for this post to take off in this direction the way it has, but I'm kind of glad it did. I want to throw a couple of things out there. California has 278 untis in it's state park system. Next year, around seventy will close. A couple of years ago, they thought over 200 would be closed. What's going to happen to them? Will a private company come in and buy them up? Will a foreign company or even a foreign government come in and buy them up? What is going to happen to them? This is due to fiscal problems.
      Could places like the DBNF be sold to the state of Kentucky? We have state forests. We have nature preserves. Crazy Horse in South Dakota is private now.  Could a private company come in and administer a national park under strict regulation, i.e., no mineral or resource extraction, no regulations on off trail hiking, etc. Yes, they may charge admission, but most national parks do. Heck, Natural Arch in McCreary County charges three dollars.
      There are many toll bridges, toll roads, seaports, even a state capitol building already owned by foreign companies. Might that be the future of the DBNF, the Red River Gorge, the Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, etc.
      Our nation's credit is going to be downgraded again soon. Is relying on government to protect our most treasured parcels of land the equivalent of expecting Lehman Brothers to  manage them in August 2008, when a collapse was right around the corner?
       Would it be better to keep these places in some capacity than to lose them outright?
       Just askin. I'll give my actual opinion a bit later.
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CheeseyDean

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2011, 07:40:00 AM »

I'm not really into all this political stuff. But a Gorge with toll booths? Admission charges? Permits for off-trail hiking? Maybe they'll even finally make a hotel on top of Raven Rock! Yeah, over my dead body. I've only just started coming to the Gorge a few years ago, and I'm not going to let something so precious be snatched away from me like that. Anyone who supports "private ownership" of the Gorge is not a true hiker or nature lover.

And another thing- the Gorge encompasses like three counties. How would they charge an admission fee to counties?
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Trekker Forrest

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Re: Ron Paul
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2011, 10:53:11 PM »

Well, The Breaks Interstate Park is in two states, Yellowstone National Park is in three states, and Glacier National Park is in two nations (even though we disguise that by calling the part in Canada by a different name).  Truth is, a lot of our parks span county and state boundaries: The Grand Canyon, The Tetons, The Boundary Waters, etc.
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